MSF Experienced RiderCourse

Any motorcycle training course is good, right? After all, there's no such thing as too much training. Anyone who thinks they're too good to learn anything new is probably ready for a tumble. Real soon.

I was ready for more -- just 3 weeks after taking the Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic, I was back at it again at the MSF Experienced RiderCourse (yep, that's the way they spell it), or ERC for short.

Now I will admit to an ulterior motive: my insurance company said they'd give me 10% off if I could prove that I took the ERC within the last 5 years. And with a couple of Ducatis in the garage, that's a pretty significant chunk o' change. I'll also admit that I did try to sneak one by them -- I sent them a copy of the certificate of completion from the last time I took the class in 2000, but no dice. It was time to do it again.

This is the third official MSF motorcycle training course I've taken in my biking career; besides the two ERC sessions, I took the MSF Beginner training, which is now known as the Basic RiderCourse, in 1998 in Florida, some 16 years after I started riding motorcycles, on a Bultaco Metralla, of all things!

That course was fantastic -- mostly due to the very skilled, patient and wonderful instructors who taught in the classroom and on the range. It was loads of fun and the best part was that I was stunned at how much I didn't know about riding motorcycles after 16 years of practice.

The MSF Experienced RiderCourse I took in 2000 was also pretty good; the instructors were excellent, but the classroom sessions and the materials provided by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation seemed a bit stilted (read: boring). Back then, about half the day was spent in the classroom and some of that time was spent watching videos.

My impressions of that training were positive, and I enjoyed the time spent practicing my skills under supervision in a parking lot -- but I really didn't learn many new techniques. As a sort of reality check -- that is, having an "experienced" instructor critique my riding skills (albeit at very low speeds) -- it was useful, but otherwise, I'm not so sure.

My opinion of the Experienced RiderCourse, which has been confirmed in my mind during my recent training, is that the ERC is probably most useful for motorcycle riders who have already gone through the MSF Beginner training about 6 months to a year earlier, have ridden during that time to gain street experience and now want to brush up on their skills.

I think that the beginning rider probably feels overwhelmed in the MSF Basic RiderCourse, trying to absorb some very complex new skills that take a huge amount of mental concentration, physical coordination and control.

What happens is that the mind naturally throws out some of the finer details and sifts through to pick out only the most important survival skills; i.e., only the basic stuff sticks with you. This is a natural human behavior.

So if the rider survives, it may be very useful to return after a few months' practice to go through all of the exercises again. It's not necessary to go into as much detail as the first time, but this time the rider absorbs more of the finer points of motorcycle training. In theory, anyway.

But for the really serious and more experienced rider -- and, in my opinion, every motorcycle rider should be really serious -- I think it's a different story. By "serious", I mean someone who looks at motorcycle riding as a craft, and is committed to a lifelong evolution of study, self-awareness, self-criticism and learning, via books, videos and track days that will help them improve their skills.

This prototype serious rider has therefore developed some good (and maybe bad) notions of what works and what doesn't, especially if they've done a bit of study by, say, reading some of the many good motorcycle riding skills books or watching videos (not of the outlaw type!) or even serious efforts like practicing in a parking lot or going to track days.

For this type of rider, the Experienced Rider Course isn't quite as useful. He or she would no doubt still benefit from briefly reviewing the basics -- the slow-speed turns, tight U-turns, Figure 8's, maximum emergency stopping and "slow, look, lean and roll", but here's where it gets complicated.

As I hinted at earlier, much of this training, whether MSF BRC or MSF ERC, depends on the instructors. A less experienced instructor, or one with weaker interpersonal skills, or an instructor that has some difficulty communicating or even one who's heart really isn't in it, can definitely make or break the value of the training.

I've discovered after my three MSF courses that the experienced riders seem to be more affected by instructor problems than less experienced riders, because the experienced rider needs a very sharp instructor who can identify the subtleties of riding habits and provide the feedback in a way that won't insult or bore.

And although it is possible that the ERC exercises might provide some benefit to more experienced riders, for the most part the exercises seem too basic and unchallenging to significantly improve an experienced rider's skills.

Also, my impression was that the instructors are under orders from MSF to follow the curriculum to the letter in the range exercises and the discussion sections. They seemed so afraid to veer from the script that they read the slides word for word, which makes that part of the course boring and devoid of even a hint of interest for the more experienced rider -- and probably for the less experienced as well. I mean after all, boring is boring, right?

The same repetitive MSF material that's used in the BRC is here -- everything from the corny "T-CLOC" (does anyone ever really remember what that means?) to traction patches and the warnings against drinking and driving. The material seems dated and mostly a repeat of the BRC, while also sounding like it's out of touch, too academic and too preachy. Just like a High School Driver's Education class.

For example, checking the bike before starting is absolutely the right idea, but after unenthusiastically reciting the T-CLOC section to us simply because MSF told them to, the instructors and everyone else completely ignored it. At the very least, the instructors could have spiced it up a bit by bringing us over to a bike and actually going through the checks, rather than reading it off a cue card and then moving on to the next topic.

Now maybe some of this is the fault of the individual instructors; after all, it's unrealistic to expect that every one of them will be Gold Star teacher. But the MSF curriculum seems to encourage an immediate dulling effect on instructor motivation simply because they must follow it to the letter, squelching any initiative or personality that might make it more interesting.

It is possible that I'd have a different opinion if I hadn't just taken the Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic just three weeks prior to the ERC. The contrast was dramatic. For the more experienced rider, the Total Control class is everything that the ERC should be. It's fun, it's relevant and it provides new ideas, skills and strategies that are very useful in real-world riding.

So here's my suggestion: Either the MSF should start talking to Lee Parks about incorporating the Total Control class into their curriculum as their higher level experienced rider training, or experienced riders should forget the ERC and go directly to Total Control. If Lee Parks could convince the insurance companies to provide the same discount, ERC would be out of business.

As for the MSF Experienced RiderCourse, I didn't learn much from this latest iteration of the training. I don't presume to speak for my fellow classmates, who, I will admit, all seemed like very good and skillful motorcycle riders. But it sure seemed to me, based on the conversations that I had with them that the consensus was that the class was, well, boring and without much relevance.

The range exercises weren't challenging and the classroom time was almost embarrassingly elementary. I have no way to tell if my impressions would be different with other instructors, or how it works in other states, but there you have it.

UPDATE: One more thing - it's been nearly 4 weeks since the course and I'm still waiting for my certificate of completion. The instructors said they didn't have the correct forms when we took the class and that he would send them out the next week. That was over 3 weeks ago. I made several phone calls to the Community College where the course was offered and they claim that they need the instructor to sign the certificate and that they'll ask him to do it when he comes in for a class next week...we'll see. Meanwhile, I'm losing money because I need the certificate to get the 10% discount on my motorcycle insurance! Moral? Make sure they give you a signed certificate of completion before you leave the parking lot!

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From "ABB": "After reading the review and comments on the MSF Experienced rider course, I felt compelled to make my own comments. Before I do so, I just want to preface my opinions by stating that I have never taken any MSF courses. However, I am a graduate of the three week NYPD Police Motorcycle Course and also a graduate of the three week Police Motorcycle Instructor Course given by Harley-Davidson and the Northwestern University Traffic Institute.

I agree that an instructor can mean the difference between having a mediocre course or a great course. One problem is that some instructors are overly impressed with themselves. Others try to show how tough they are by failing students, and others try to impress people by making riding seem more involved and harder than it is. They need to learn to leave their egos off the range and focus on the students.

Even in the NYPD course, which only graduates 40 to 50%, the instructors were doing everything to encourage the students. Many of the graduates were on their second or third try. In my course we started with fifteen students and only graduated seven. The ones that were eliminated were removed the first week because they weren't keeping up or were unsafe and couldn't be brought up to speed. All of them, without exception, were encouraged to practice on their own and return at a later date to try again.

I kept in touch and all eventually did pass, one on his fourth try! Granted, the training is intense and there are time constraints, but everyone was encouraged, and no student passes who isn't safe and able to perform the extremely challenging riding required.

In my opinion, except in rare cases, when a student fails it means that the instructor failed. I know of one MSF student who was freaked out because she panicked and wound up with a runaway motorcycle. She was in tears because she felt she could have killed someone before she got it under control. She wanted to quit on the spot.

The instructor sat her down and talked to her, calmed her down and told her how to handle the situation. He said she could quit if she wanted to, but felt she should give it another go. She came to talk to me that night and ask my opinion. I told her it was her choice, but I agreed with the instructor. She went back the next day, passed the course and got her license. Her instructor obviously realized that mistakes are a great opportunity to learn.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I met a waitress while on a ride who told me that she took the MSF course, but was told to leave by an instructor who had a major attitude. She said that he kept yelling at her to use the "friction zone" and "feather the rear brake". She didn't understand and kept asking what he meant. He didn't attempt to explain it. I told her what the techniques were and she told me that in two minutes I was able to make her understand what this instructor couldn't, even with all his barking.

Instructors need to realize that people are different, and learn at different speeds in different ways. An instructor who doesn't realize that is not an instructor. As for the instructor encountered by "H.T.", she should have been bounced from the class instead of the students. An instructor who tells a student that they shouldn't ride a motorcycle after one try has no business being an instructor (especially when that student passed her course).

Any instructor who berates students, especially to the point of causing one woman to cry, is a pathetic excuse for an instructor. She was the failure, not the students. I feel bad that "H.T." missed out on thirteen years of fun, but I am happy that the dream has finally been realized. Obviously, that instructor couldn't have been more wrong.

The bottom line is that the good instructors greatly outnumber the bad, and you shouldn't let one bad experience prevent you from trying again until you get the results you are looking for. Knowledge is power, and training is knowledge."

From "M.K.": "I am a new rider who took the MSF Experienced RiderCourse this past weekend. I took the MSF beginner course a year ago and was able to accumulate about 5000 miles in between the two.

In my opinion, and for my situation, the course was well worth my time (and the $25 it costs in Michigan). The instructors were both knowledgeable and easy to listen to. The coaching was relevant and useful. As I rode home afterwards, I actually felt a difference in my riding and confidence on the bike. Maybe the course would be more accurately represented if they called it the "Advanced Beginner Course", but I would hate to scare people away from something that might do them some good.

When it comes to your safety on a motorcycle, what is 6 or 8 hours of your time in the grand scheme of things? If the course turns out to be all review for you, then it still didn't hurt anything. If you pick something up, then it was time well spent. The other (non-MSF) training courses will still be available when you're done."

From "D.W.": "I thought I would pass along comments for inclusion in your MSF ERC. I took the ERC course in Texas this weekend. I'm a repeat customer of the ERC before, and probably will take it again someday because I always learn something and I figure getting a insurance discount along with a statistical blessing that is good for a few years is worth the $80 the course costs. I've ridden for 30+ years, and I consider myself a careful, but not particularly gifted or experienced, rider - I like to ride but, for lots of reasons, don't rack-up a lot of miles or (cross-country) trips.

Unfortunately, the MSF ERC is the only game in town here. I tip my hat to MSF and the local franchises for putting on these courses. No Total Control-like course locally that I know (and I would love to take one of those but they are clear across the country).

I hope the MSF can come up with something more meaningful at some point. While the range exercises are good for slow-speed maneuvering practice, reviewing risks, and looking "throuuuugh the corner", I struggle with the dumbing-down to the least common denominator.

I could never get my bike out of first gear: everything was done 20 mph or less. It felt more like an exercise in parade formation training than something with a lot of value for street riding today. Add to that a K12-bike that doesn't like < 20 mph very much and is idling in 2nd at this speed. I asked myself several times during the day how relevant this is to the real world riding.

I suspect some of the dumbing-down is due to MSF's fear of litigation (either real or perceived) - must have signed 3 different liability releases during the day (MSF and the host venue). The class would probably improve 100% if the training took place at real street speeds if the venue permitted it, or it was conducted on some type of a semi-track environment.

The instructor seemed to stretch the limited material, read mostly from the cards, into a mandatory 8 hour day. A lot of time spent watching others putt around and round at 20 in the Texas heat, wishing for a few laps at 30 just to cool off the bike and rider (note to self - take the course during the winter in Texas).

Still, I value and thank the MSF ERC and the local guys, and at the same time hope for a broader array of advanced street safety training some day. I don't really want a "track day", but it would be great if there was something in-between in this area."

From "C.S.": "I really felt that I didn't learn anything I didn't already know. If nothing else, it confirmed that I was doing everything right prior to the trip :) But I didn't get any real feedback and the instructors did read from the cards.

I've spent the past few years learning how my bike works. I'm at 60,000 miles on the Hayabusa and this year I started taking it to the track. Now I'm considering taking the more advanced Total Control class. From Rick's comments, it sounds like the exact right next step.

Finally I agree with Rick. This class is really for the rider that's taken the BRC 6 months to a year prior. I'd also include the riders that use the bike as a functional means of transportation vs the more advanced riders who are learning more about how the bike works, reads and watches videos in an effort to improve their riding skills. The functional riders should probably take the class every year or two prior to getting back on the bike after winter.

Thanks again for a good article."

From "E.B.": "I had a good experience the first time in the ERC several years ago and came away a much better and confident rider. I also took this class for a second time this year and went with 2 friends. One had done the ERC class previously and the other had never had any formal training.

Early on in the class time the experienced friend and I agreed that they had kind of "dumbed down" the class. The untrained friend was getting some stuff that he had never heard before and was glad for it. Once out on the course it became clear that our instructors were not very observant and were not giving useful feedback to the more experienced riders.

People started leaving about an hour into the course time. At 5PM (4 hours into the course time) there were 2 or 3 exercises to go. My experienced friend and I were completely bored and decided to leave. Yes, we blew our insurance discount but we've decided we will never attend that class again because a day of boredom is not worth the $30-50 discount. My time is far more valuable than that.

My untrained friend stuck it out to the end as he wanted to get what he could. He was glad he attended but probably will not return to an ERC. We're now looking for other classes, on the track or street, to actually learn something to apply. The few classes we've found are very expensive but I feel the price will be acceptable as long as I truly learn something and become a better rider. It seems MSF isn't geared for the rider that is looking to improve already strong skills."

From "G.K.": "It seemed that some of the comment discussion was related to the BRC as much as the ERC, so you can judge whether this comment should be included.

I had never ridden a motorcycle before January of this year. I had no experience using a clutch and didn't even know what countersteering was, but in a single day at the BRC I became familiar with shifting gears and learned handling techniques that many self-taught riders who have been on a bike for 20 years don't know. It helped tremendously that we had two very experienced and talented instructors. They knew the exercises like the back of their hand and obviously had plenty of experience with exactly what mistakes to watch for and what corrections would be needed.

Note that all the learning and progress that I am referring to took place on the course. I learned absolutely nothing during the classroom training. Keep in mind that I had never once ridden a motorcycle before, but I had read up on them and understood the basic concepts such as where the various controls were located. If I could make one suggestion it would be to allow students to take a test which would decide whether they would need to sit in the classroom for a day or could proceed directly to the course. Let people study a book on their own time. We don't need these wonderful instructors to tell us that intersections are dangerous.

From "J.J.C.": "I just finished the ECR last weekend so the timing of your article couldn’t be better. I agree with you the coaches make the program, I was lucky. My coaches were very good and picked up on some habits I developed. The riding isn’t that challenging but I had a major problem with the tight U turns.

I ride a Suzuki Burgman and with the CVT trans it can be a challenge to have good throttle control. I was giving gas and backing off making it a very herky-jerky task. My coach picked up on it right away and suggested I give a little back brake keeping the tension on the trans... It worked very well. I could have picked that up on my own but I doubt it. The entire session was great to work on throttle control and balance.

Plus the price is right in Pennsylvania FREE. So worth the time I wish they had a street survival course I’d the first to sign up and pay a fee.

Editor's Note: The ERC cost $125.00 in Maryland!

From "P.": "I'm one of the motorcyclists described by Rick, I started riding last year, took the basic course to get licensed (and to get survival skills) and just completed the experienced course last weekend. The experienced course was a re-hash of the basic course compressed into 6 hours. During the practice portion, there were a few points worth re-emphasizing, like keeping my head up, and I picked up a counter-balancing technique in the slalom. The riding test at the end was the same as the basic course, and in fact, a few riders in the experienced course used it to obtain their license that day. The written material was too basic. Six hours was too long.

I'd like to see the MSF have a series of shorter clinics that deal with just one or two skills at a time. Riders who need a license could go through the more formal basic course."

From "M.S.": "First, let me state categorically that what I'm writing is my opinion alone and not to be construed as an official MSF statement or position on this issue.

As an MSF RiderCoach, I was disappointed to read the review of your latest experience as an ERC participant, for two reasons. One: It's obvious your RiderCoach didn't give you the kind of experience you deserved. Two: You didn't acknowledge the logistical realities of fielding a nationwide rider course vs Lee Parks' excellent, but boutique style of training experience.

As you mentioned several times, the RiderCoach you get during a BRC or ERC truly makes or breaks the training experience during an MSF course. The MSF has explicitly moved away from a scripted curriculum over the last 6 years and highly encourages their RiderCoaches to use adult learning (i.e. non-boring) principles throughout each class. If your RiderCoach stood before you and read from slides, then they were blatantly violating the MSF's training concept.

Unfortunately, the best course material in the world won't help a rider if the RiderCoach can't or won't make the learning environment enjoyable and meaningful to the student. Ask yourself this: would your Lee Parks Total Control session have been nearly as effective if your ERC Ridercoach was the presenter? From what you wrote, I highly doubt it.

As for the Total Control ARC putting the MSF ERC out of business, you need to understand the much larger context of what you're suggesting. Lee Parks himself, in his first chapter of his book "Total Control: High-Performance Street Riding Techniques", states his inability to do more than the minimal numbers of Total Control ARC's he does each year. To expand that into a nationwide program would require the same numbers of instructors as the MSF, with all it's variations in instructor personalities and levels of experience. So guess what? Eventually you'd see the same issues in the Total Control ARC that you experienced in your ERC.

I've never seen or participated in a Total Control ARC but I'd love to have the chance someday in the future. And while the MSF could and should certainly look at incorporating new techniques in their training curriculum, they must also keep their training system broad enough to cover every type of bike and rider on the road, not just those whose bike and riding style get maximum value out of the Total Control ARC. Thanks for listening!"

From "B.D.": "I agree completely with Rick K. And I come by my opinion NOT having done the Total Control Clinic. I took the BRC back in 2001. Having gone through several car track day/driving schools with the national Audi club prior to 2001 (and having been very impressed with the level of professionalism and training at those events) I was impressed with my BRC.

The curriculum was wide ranging, important areas were covered in depth, training progressed quickly for all but one student from utter novice to competence and the instructor was fantastic. In addition, discussions with my fellow classmates yielded similar opinions, especially concerning the teaching qualities of our instructor.

The lone exception was clearly in way over her head and was not able to grasp important lessons like remembering which lever controlled the brake and which one the clutch. She was asked by the instructor to consider dropping the course since she would be unable to pass. She refused, did not pass and did not receive her endorsement.

Considering its obvious limitations vs my track day experience (no high speeds, single instructor, several riders lacking any seat time at all), the class compared favorably with my other experience.

In contrast, the ERC I took last summer was barely worth the time. There, we had two instructors instead of one. Both were good enough but neither was great as my BRC instructor had been. The lessons were taught right off the cards, what was on the cards was boring and most of the lessons were easy for a rider like myself with six years of experience. It was only when they stepped out from behind the cards that real learning happened.

In my case, the single useful thing I learned that day was doing lock to lock low speed turning. And I never would have learned that one on my own since it took the instructors to notice my body position was all wrong to balance the bike at 5 mph. I THOUGHT I was doing it right when in fact I was screwing-up. They broke down my mistakes, walked me though the whole thing and bingo, I got it.

While I feel that alone was worth $50, the time spent wading through all the rest was not. In addition since the course always covers the same subjects, I no longer have anything to gain from retaking the course unless I fail to practice my parking lot maneuvers. If the Total Control Clinic is as advertised then it would in fact be the logical follow-on to the BRC and not the ERC."

From "H.T.": "In 1993, I enrolled in my 1st MSF Beginners Course here in (Florida). I've never ridden before and was eager to learn the fundamentals. We had a married couple as fill-in instructors that came up from Fort Myers because our regular instructor was not available.

In short, the whole thing was a bad experience for several of us, even though in the end I barely passed by only 1 point. She flunked several others outright - mostly beginning women riders with no experience - breaking one down to tears while still on the course, berating and embarrassing her in front of the class.

At my final interview, the lady instructor told me that riding was wrong for me and I was not qualified. Since she had so much experience, I heeded her advice and reluctantly quit. I never forgot that experience, but I still wanted to ride 13 years later.

It was “now or never” - so I bought three cycles last year, accumulated over 10,000 miles riding Florida Alabama, New Mexico, Nevada, and Utah. Since then, I learned a lot, and study the art of riding all the time, thoroughly enjoying the whole experience. Now I understand what it means: "Ride to Live/Live to Ride".

Regretfully, I only wish I had started earlier."